Podcast

Scaling Up [S7.E2]: The Culture Scaling Playbook, Hiring and Retention

What is a high-performing culture? It is a question as straightforward as it is philosophical.

In this special season, we explore high-performing culture; what they are, how to create them, and most importantly how to scale them. This season draws upon the themes and wisdom shared by the previous 42 CEOs, founders, leaders who we have had the pleasure of interviewing on Scaling Up.

The following workbook includes many of the key topics, frameworks and references from the podcast.

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Ed Cowan (00:00):
What is a high performing culture? It’s a question as straightforward as it is philosophical. In these special episodes, we explore high performing cultures, what they are, how to create them, and most importantly, how not to just maintain them but scale them by drawing upon the wisdom of CEOs, founders, and leaders who have had the pleasure of interviewing over the last six years. This episode dives into the integral culture scaling topic of hiring and retaining great talent. The crux of every scaling success is great people, and this episode aims to give operators meaningful and tangible best practise ideas for them to execute upon. We’ll discuss a plethora of topics from feedback to remuneration and everything in between when it comes to attracting and retaining top talent. I’m Ed Cowan and this is episode two of the Culture Scaling Playbook.

For the last five years, I’ve had the absolute pleasure of hosting Scaling Up a podcast, telling the growth stories of some of the most successful private and public companies globally, as told by their founder CEOs and other key leaders who between them have created some 150 billion in market capitalization. After 42 episodes and over 300,000 words of transcripts, we now have a database of knowledge to dive into and pull out some common threads across a range of topics. This episode though is wholly dedicated to the role hiring and retaining amazing talent plays in successfully scaling people and culture and ultimately business success. In the previous episode, we explored the role values play in successful culture building how they have to be at the centre of every decision made in the business, every behaviour exhibited, and how best to do this. While these episodes are certainly intended to be siloed in their content, I’d probably recommend listening to that as a primer for this episode

Teams and the Power of Belonging at the beginning of each episode in this special series on scaling culture, I hope to give a little sprinkle of my own experience, and while sports teams are perhaps less analogous to fast-growing businesses in regards to hiring and retention, there are some really key lessons both philosophically and practically that can be drawn in my opinion. Perhaps the biggest lesson I took away from 16 years of professional sport that is relevant to the scaffolding of this episode and many of its topics relates to how the best talent can be highly engaged and motivated to maximise the chances of team success given their very high individual skill. It intersects the importance of mission and vision, but to me it runs far deeper than that. It’s actually being able to create a real sense of belonging and connection for those people, and this is easier said than done across ages, backgrounds, and in sport particularly motivations.

It is rooted in the higher purpose of a team and where each individual feels like they can interact with the basic human need of feeling a connection to it. It is how communities have been built for thousands of years and of course is the basis for trust, collaboration, and ultimately particularly in a sports environment performance. It wasn’t until my cricket career had finished that I realised the underlying cause of my full spectrum of performances for varying teams was actually rooted in my greatest sense of connection and belonging. Certain teams I played for had no sense of onboarding, for instance, just a cap, a bus leave time, and a spot in the change rooms. Other teams went to great lengths to make you feel like you’re part of a long line of players, to be custodians of a team with a clear mission and values. There was a genuine effort to share histories and rich personal stories.

Every team or company, of course is made up of a diverse and complex set of personalities and histories and embracing these and not shunning them to foster cohesion is in my opinion, at the centre of all successful teams. Most of my illumination on this topic has come via the phenomenal, and I would almost say must read book by Owen Eastwood, simply called Belonging. Owen has worked with some of the finest teams in history, including the All Blacks who are a great case study for Owen’s work. Of course, a team of Pacifica, Marion, Anglo Origins among others, and yet they’re all one unified and cohesive unit that can deliver outcomes like no team before them. One team, one mission. Here is Steve Hanson, the most successful All Blacks coach in history. When I was lucky enough to interview him in 2022, the full interview is available on YouTube and I’ll put them in the show notes.

Steve Hansen (04:43):
Well, we sat down and wanted to understand our own identities for a start, so who were we? Where did we come from? What did that look like? And then we wanted to establish an identity for the All Blacks, whether you are in the All Blacks for one game or 149 or whatever, there’ll be a story told about you and you’ll tell your grandchild will hear that story. So what story do you want them to hear? And you’ve got to break down the barracks. You would have Andrew Haw who’s a farmer from Ram Furley and if you know New Zealand, some people would even call it redneck country and he’d be rooming with Kevin who’s from South Auckland. Those two guys found that they had similar values, they had similar feelings, they had fears, they had strengths. It didn’t start off like that, but by the time they finished their careers, those two guys were so tight.

And I think it’s about creating an environment that allows the people within it to a, not tolerate anyone that can’t see past it, but actually give them the opportunity to grow and learn and move through it and become a better human being because of it. So if we can break those things down, and that’s what we did in our team, we broke them down, and I think in companies you’ve got to break them down and say, well, here’s the misconceptions. There are so many people, whether they’re men or women, if they give themselves to the team, they’ll contribute so much more and you get so much more out of that rather than have little pockets, you just can’t tolerate that

Ed Cowan (06:34):
To round this out. As Owen Eastwood points out in his book, the primal need for a vision and the creation of a high connection is most pertinent to bringing people of diverse backgrounds together and to use his words, not mine, what they most tangibly share is the future They’ll all be embarking on together.

What makes for great hiring and why is it the centre of successfully scaling culture? The number one call out over the course of over 40 Scaling Up episodes. If you want to build a wildly successful company, it is a non-negotiable to be very deliberate in your hiring and structured in your processes around it. While inherently obvious, this is harder said than done when you hit the size and scale of adding a person a day. Reggie Agarwal, the CEO and founder of Cvent set it nicely in his scaling up episode. And of course Reggie talks from a position of knowledge on this topic, having led the business from day one to now over 5,000 employees globally.

Reggie Aggarwal (07:37):
I can talk to 10 customers, 20 customers, that doesn’t scale a business. What scales the business is I hire a hundred people who could each talk to 50 customers. So it was all about getting the tree trunk straight, hire the right people and then once that happens, then they can hire the next set. And if you don’t do it right the first time, you can never figure it out. It’s just too difficult to see if you have a weak DNA in your team because you don’t know who’s strong and weak.

Ed Cowan (08:00):
Make no mistake hiring people will fundamentally change the culture for better or worse. We spoke at length about the importance of values alignment in episode one of this series, but what else makes for a great hire? Leaders will always have their own views on this question, and it’s important to be clear about exactly what is important to you as a business. Here is Paul Bassett, co-founder of Seek Now a $10 billion business and now one of Australia’s best investors.

Paul Bassat (08:27):
There’s a mindset piece that you actually want to surround yourself with people who are going to challenge you, surround yourself with people who are incredibly bright, where you’re going to have these spirited debates. Is that the sort of organisation you want? Everyone says they do. We are never, ever going to meet a founder who’s going to say to us, look, I just want to surround myself with a bunch of idiots who are going to agree with me. No one’s ever going to say that. So everyone’s going to tell you what you want to hear on that point. So a lot of it is just about observing the interaction with their colleagues, how interact. I think it’s important to think quite consciously about hiring people across three attributes if you like. Values, alignment, horsepower, raw talent and experience, and just thinking across those attributes and deciding quite consciously what you want to optimise for. I’ve always optimised for values alignment and raw ability over experience. I think experience is the most overrated attribute in hiring, not that it’s unimportant if you want someone hiring a pilot or hiring a surgeon.

Ed Cowan (09:24):
This quote deeply resonated with my own personal beliefs on high performance environments and establishing the optimal mix of supremely talented and hungry young professionals learning alongside the well-established senior team member to guide and help shape that up and coming talent both technically and culturally. Sports teams, of course have the luxury of not having to hire all that often, and so this can be done both methodically and strategically. To flow on from this, here’s Bruce Buchanan, the co-founder and CEO of ROKT on the topic of what he looks for when hiring, and of course few businesses have experienced the velocity of growth that ROKT has in recent years.

Bruce Buchanan (10:04):
Is this person align with our values, which is a yes or no? Where does this person spike in competencies? We believe that competencies are something like tools in a toolbox. People either have them or don’t have them, and we in shorthand look at only three things, which is competencies for us are iq, IQ and EQ

Ed Cowan (10:24):
For clarity. Here Bruce is referring to intellect iq, adversity, quotient aq, how someone deals with obstacles and challenges, an emotional quotient, EQ often associated with empathy and the ability to deal with conflict. Back to Bruce,

Bruce Buchanan (10:42):
If you say, what is a skill that drives the highest degree of success? Actually the interesting one when you read the research is AQ is the most highly correlated with long-term success, which is kind of interesting, right? Those were the greatest degree of tenacity and never say die, the grit and the hustle.

Ed Cowan (10:59):
The interview questions, Bruce was just referring to a part of the hiring bar raising process that ROKT has initiated. This process was famously developed at Amazon and publicised more broadly in the book working backwards. It’s a great bible of sorts that gives you an in-depth look at how Amazon has thought about scaling culture, leadership and best practise. A programme akin to the bar raiser is a practise whereby an employee independent of the team that is hiring a tasked with ensuring that new recruits will be additive to the culture of the business. They are deemed cultural stewards and they ensure a consistency and objectivity as it’s applied to candidates. And with this bar raisers of course have the right to veto any candidate. The hiring process itself is highly variable. Unique processes are required across the prospective employee funnel of recruiting, hiring, and finally onboarding one framework I like a lot that’s presented by Claire Hughes Johnson, the former COO of Stripe in her sensational book, scaling People Imagining a Pyramid at the Base, you’re hiring at high frequency and because of the volume of hires that are filling open roles, it requires a very scaled approach, often involving a multitude of people.

Claire makes the point that everyone in the organisation has to prioritise the time and work and adhering to hiring practises and have to be motivated to do that if they care about the culture. The top of the pyramid are the low frequency usually leadership hires that will require a bespoke approach each and every time at some scale. This is where A CEO or founder should be very active in building a deep bench of talent across the c-suite and perhaps one level below. Almost every founder we’ve interviewed on scaling Up that is impossible to be deeply involved in hiring past about a hundred people. The key is to teach other leaders about why or why not you’ve hired someone and through this transparency, they’ll be far better at becoming a proxy for judging for what a great hire looks like. As it relates to building out the leadership team, TDM have put together some great frameworks as to the qualities we look for in great CFOs, chief marketing officers as well as CEOs.

We’re aiming to keep building these out as well as keeping them updated. These are the qualities we evaluate candidates when we’re hiring for positions in our private portfolio companies and they’ll be in the accompanying workbook that will be published alongside this episode and hopefully it’ll be a very valuable resource. One hot tip when hiring, and while it may seem obvious, regardless of the intent of the questions, be it trying to uncover character or competency, ensuring every single candidate is asked the same set of questions allows you to far more easily benchmark what a great answer does in fact look like.

The role of the chief people officer and the right time to hire one, a key question for many founders and CEOs of fast-growing businesses and is pertinent to ensuring systems and processes around culture, scaling is the role of A CPO and when is the right time to hire one, A vast majority of scaling up guests when asked this question said the CPO or CHRO was perhaps the higher that allowed them to leverage their own time the most. They saw this role as a key unlock. The best CPOs need to be viewed as business leaders of the people function and a very strategic business partner to the CEO. After all the people strategy has to support the business strategy and the CPO needs to dictate this people strategy. It’s a huge red flag for businesses that deeply value culture if its head of people does not directly report to the CEO. Spencer Rasko, the co-founder and former CEO of Zillow. Now a US $11 billion listed real estate portal shares his views on the relative importance

Spencer Rascoff (15:01):
As CEO of Zillow. This will probably surprise you, I spent more time with the CHRO Dan significantly more time than with the CTO David. Think about that. That’s a tech company, right? My point of view was always I want to focus my time on the things that I have differentiated competitive advantage over. I’m one of the only people that can try to motivate 5,000 employees, and so I always over indexed on people and culture because I thought that was the best way to get leverage for my time and that’s why I spent more time with the HR team and the HR business partners and the recruiters and all the people that are responsible for getting 5,000 people to lean forward.

Ed Cowan (15:39):
Katherine McConnell of Bright summed up her own psychology as it relates to the importance of a great CPO hire.

Katherine McConnell (15:45):
I think it’s really important to look at who’s in charge of that part of your business and make sure you’ve got an amazing person. You may have just focused in other areas of the business that drove growth or revenue or marketing, but every part of the business you’ve got to have great talent. And then we now think about it also as people operations, not just people and culture and you think about scaling the operations in marketing or customer service, but people operations is where you have to think about operations as well. And so it’s how you scale onboarding and it’s how you scale time to competency. So how quickly can you actually get people ready and effective to be able to do their job because that enables you to be quicker, to be able to support your customers and create revenue.

Ed Cowan (16:29):
The importance of onboarding when it comes to building a cohesive culture, perhaps the best way to ensure this is to think of onboarding like a hotel reception. A bad initial experience can really stay in the rest of the stay. The aim of great onboarding is to create a sense of new belonging, to inspire and ultimately facilitate a new employee to do their best work as quickly as possible. And as you may have guessed, onboarding in this context is certainly not referencing the setting up of computers and IT access, but rather an opportunity to be very explicit as to what the cultural expectations are and what they look like well lived. You can think of this as the why mission and vision, the what, including the current strategy, priorities and goals and how the operating and cultural principles underpinning how people are expected to interact with each other. This is always best done by the CEO or founder and other executives in some capacity and is also best done with storytelling or artefacts of the past. People remember stories more than slides. He’s Rick Stollmeyer, the co-founder and former CEO of Mindbody.

Rick Stollmeyer (17:41):
Once they join Mindbody, we reinforce these core values continually. Every new class of team members will have a core values workshop with me and still, yes, still incredible. And so the way we’ve been able to scale that is it could be sometimes as many as 30 people in a group of hires, and this is one of my favourite things to do because what I do is I tie together the core values with the purpose of the business and explain a bit about examples of these core values and why these things matter to us.

Ed Cowan (18:13):
Reiterating this view, Jonathan Corr, the former CEO of EllieMae, on the importance of ensuring the process of onboarding treads, the line of scalability and connection.

Jonathan Corr (18:24):
What we recognised early on was it was about culture and maintaining that. And so as we thought about that, we wanted to obviously bring in all kinds of new people and new thoughts, but at the same time make sure those values and that foundation carried itself forward. So we really instituted probably right around 200 people this idea of employee onboarding where every single employee, whether they’re here at this location, we bring them on remotely. Any acquisitions we do comes through a multi-day orientation or onboarding as we call it at Ellie Mae and I speak to him. Sig used to speak to him, Joe Terrell, many of the other leaders telling them the vision, the North star, the culture, the values, what we expect of them, what they can expect from us, helping them understand this business. And so that has been really this kind of foundation that everybody goes through and it gets people on the common playing field.

Ed Cowan (19:28):
A great onboarding programme is methodically laid out, can take weeks to be fully through the curriculum, and aside from synchronous delivery, should provide guidance as to how people can also self-educate themselves with great internal resources. Asynchronously a great tip for leaders as part of your own onboarding, it’s a great idea to onboard your new team as to how you best work, how you communicate, how you like to lead and your own expectations to what you hold yourself to account and others to. If in doubt over-communicate, A change in leader is a big moment for any direct report and you can fast track relationships and of course trust by doing this.

Let’s talk rem. I’m lucky enough to host people and culture dinners all around the world with some of the best executives across fast growing private and public businesses. These dinners set out to provide a safe and intimate setting for these executives to discuss and debate. Best practise when it comes to scaling people and culture without doubt. One of the hottest topics, regardless of whether you’re at dinner in New York, San Francisco or Sydney, is remuneration. Every company has a variety of methods to try and attract and retain great talent when it comes to remuneration. What is it? At the heart of these discussions though are principles that tend to be very aligned despite the variety of methods used to achieve and adhere to these principles. Here are some of those principles that emerge time and time again of high functioning companies globally. One, there’s a marketplace and you need to be competitive in the market.

People want to know that they’re being paid fairly and want to know that they’ll be recognised for their performance. Two, remuneration alone will not attract the best talent to think that this is not the case will make you fall into a perpetual doom loop. Not only are they paying top dollar but often attract high quality, but poor cultural hires, the very best engaged employees want to feel valued and the dollar value ascribed to that is no doubt a part of it, but this comes in other forms such as connection to purpose, recognition of contribution, and of course how they’re managed. Myles Glashier summed up the opportunity as a business case way back in series three, episode six of Scaling Up.

Myles Glashier (21:47):
Culture has been our greatest recruitment weapon that we could possibly have, and I think the culture has allowed us to get a lot of these great people maybe ahead of when we could probably afford them.

Ed Cowan (21:59):
Three truly great people will pay for themselves many, many times over four simplicity rules when it comes to remuneration plans. Being able to clearly articulate them is key to set expectations with employees, knowing that employees misunderstanding compensation and equity plans will erode trust quickly. Being able to simply and rigorously explain and educate your team consistently will go a long way to avoiding this. Five equity plans need to encourage an ownership mentality and reward people for creating value over long periods of time. In regards to this, TDM works with many management teams on structuring remuneration plans and to overlay our own beliefs on this particular point, particularly when it comes to remuneration for key executives. Short-term incentive plans are not just for showing up and they can’t just be a proxy for an enlarged base salary. The underlying purpose is to provide annual incentive to management teams to drive ongoing performance and growth of the business. Reward is given delivering the agreed annual plan and budget and when these budgets are exceeded, management share in the excess on a sliding scale in regards to long-term incentive plans. TDMs core belief is that if management can create significant value, they should be rewarded for that in an outsized manner. Thinking like an owner means creating long-term value for the shareholders and with this management should very significantly share in this value creation. We’ve written a lot on stock-based compensation, and I’ll link these in the workbook that accompanies this episode.

Making sure the best are not just retained but they thrive. Building trust through feedback. One thing that became obvious to me very quickly, moving from a professional sports change room to the world of business was the change in feedback loops. Athletes crave feedback. They know when it comes from a coach or a teammate, it comes from a place of trust that the only thing that matters is getting better outcomes for the team. This ensures feedback comes thick and fast and in the moment and the performance reflection cycles match the cadence of games usually weekly. Compare this to what happens in the corporate world. Performance reviews can be semi-annual at best and feedback is not a natural default setting for many. Tim Brown who played football for New Zealand at a World Cup and is also the co-founder and former CEO of Allbirds has a unique view of this exact problem.

Tim Brown (24:37):
The language of performance is something that I think you take for granted in a sporting context, right? It’s there all the time. It’s hovering over every practise each weekend. The result you make the team, you didn’t make the team. And so you almost take for granted the idea that you are constantly getting input and feedback on your performance. And I think in the business world, I really, it’s taken been a big adjustment for me to understand both people are not used to that and it doesn’t happen as often and you’ve got to be very, very thoughtful and methodical about defining a language of performance. You go to a business context and when are you talking about performance? Once a year, a big review cycle. And so I think one of the things I’ve had to learn is that you have to be very methodical and clear in defining the language of performance.

I think the other big difference Ed, is with sport, you are away, you’re travelling, you are able to develop a deep personal context. I always think that the foundation of high performing teams is a deep level of trust and I think in a sporting context that’s accelerated and in the business world without that, particularly in a remote working environment, I think it becomes very, very difficult to articulate and then act on a language of performance that allows people to get better, that is very direct, that makes people better, that calls out things that fall short of values or results or behaviours that fall short of what you want. And I think it’s taken me a long time to understand in business you want the same things, but you need to approach it in a different way to build that foundation of trust and to define a very, very clear language of performance within a culture.

Ed Cowan (26:18):
So if we recognise that team sports are a pretty good approximate of high performing cultures, what can we do to close the gap in the corporate world as intimated above? The importance of building a culture of informal feedback outside of formal reviews is the biggest leap forward any organisation can make. How to do this is not easy. It requires a shared language and infrastructure around how both give and receive feedback. And if not present in your business, we’ll take a large concerted effort inch by inch to make this an unlock. There are plenty of great resources as it relates to feedback, both giving and receiving, that I can link in the show notes importantly to note, without a culture of informal feedback, the formal review processes can feel very destabilising. People want to know where they stand. As a general rule of thumb, when it comes to individuals, both positive and constructive feedback is best done face to face and in the moment.

And the old adage to praise in public and criticise in private hold significance. The exception to this is feedback to teams where objective data as it relates to the performance of the team as an honest assessment can be used to promote discussion on learnings and how the team can improve and in turn only enhancing the culture of feedback. The best way to shift informal feedback like most things is for leaders to model the behaviour consistently asking for feedback in a variety of settings through a variety of forums. One tip for leaders in normalising the practise of giving and receiving feedback is to articulate feedback you have received in a public setting like an all team meeting. While simple, it can be really powerful. In series six, I interviewed Jen Hyman, founder and CEO of Rent the Runway. She makes the pertinent point of the importance for leaders to be seen, to be acting upon feedback and not just treating it as lip service.

Jenn Hyman (28:13):
People only give feedback to others, especially to people who are more senior to them when that feedback is listened to and it evokes change. But if you could actually show that when someone does have an opinion, when someone does give you feedback that you actually act on it, it creates an environment and a culture where people over time feel more and more comfortable giving you that feedback. And so that’s been one element of it, of seeking it out, asking for it, and then acting on it, which I think is really important. The second aspect is making sure that the feedback comes from a diverse set of sources so that you’re really learning about how you can not only improve, but how you can accentuate your strengths from people who report directly to you. People who don’t report directly to you, who might be way more junior in an organisation from your investors, from board members, from other mentors. You never know where that really resonant feedback is going to come from. And it’s not always going to come from the obvious of sources.

Ed Cowan (29:19):
Jen continues with the importance of leaning into positive feedback. This is also a key technique used in sports team to accelerate performance.

Jenn Hyman (29:28):
And I think that the feedback that is really important is telling someone what they’re really good at and how they could become great at those things. So you’re giving them feedback about things that they already have confidence in, they already feel good about those areas. So much of our time is wasted on trying to get people to improve the stuff that they shouldn’t be focusing on at all. So I think that feedback needs to really be about bringing people from good to great in the areas where they are uniquely good. And the very best thing that you can do for someone, and this is my leadership style, is help them realise what they are uniquely great at and help them dream bigger for their entire career. As a result of that.

Ed Cowan (30:16):
In the downloadable workbook, I’ve included some awesome templates courtesy of Georgia Murch who is a feedback expert. I use these templates all the time to help get over the hurdle of drafting tough conversations. In my mind, I think you’ll find them really useful too.

The importance of diversity of thought. While diversity has many different lens to look through, and regardless of what you personally believe, one thing is undeniable. Cognitively diverse teams will outperform homogenous ones. The easiest way to create cognitive diversity is to have people from a wide variety of cultural, racial, social, and gender backgrounds and beliefs all brought together under a common set of values bound by a common mission. The bigger the problem you’re attacking, the more diversity you need to do. So multi-dimensionally, of course, it is then up to the leaders to harness this amongst the team. There is no point in having a diverse set of ideas if the leaders do not have the ability or inclination to tap into it to come full circle. This very much relates to the issues that we open the episode with Bruce Buchanan, founder of ROKT, highlighted the intent of a diverse workforce.

Bruce Buchanan (31:32):
I think it’s hugely important to have other people in the business that behave differently. And as a team, as you come together, you get these wonderful combinations of personalities and a group of very different thinkers and very different personalities in terms of the way they tackle a problem will achieve a much better outcome than everyone being exactly aligned in exactly the same way.

Ed Cowan (31:55):
Another conversation that comes to mind that I really encourage you to revisit, and it was a bit of a under the radar treasure in the Scaling Up catalogue was the episode of Therese Tucker, series four. Episode two. Therese is the founder and former CEO now chairperson of BlackLine, the NASDAQ listed technology company. Therese with a Pink Hair is a real character and talks to the importance of intentionally building hiring pipelines and pools of candidates that are brimming with diversity and that you have to measure that to keep your teams accountable. One of her amusing anecdotes that sticks with me in regards to allowing people to be their authentic self at work still brings a smile to my face.

Therese Tucker (32:38):
When you can bring your authentic self to work, that’s when you’re going to be most productive and most happy. And so we never hired people based on a particular look. In fact, it’s been really interesting because we’ve had some really strange people work at BlackLine and it’s been a lot of fun, especially in the early days because we used to say, you can have good cheap or not crazy, pick two and it’s true. And so we always went for good and cheap, but we would get some real characters in there. It’s awesome if people can be themselves at work.

Ed Cowan (33:23):
We have covered a lot of ground in this culture. Scaling Playbook, hiring and Retention episode. A reminder about the downloadable interactive PDF, that is a mix of show notes, key points, links to key documents that I’ve mentioned throughout, as well as prompts to ask yourself and potential learnings to apply to some of your own real world settings. It’s available as a clickthrough in the podcast player, but it’s also downloadable via the TDM website. So to recap this episode, we traverse the importance of belonging when it comes to creating a high performance culture. Then took a dive into what makes for great hiring, when is the right time to hire a chief people officer, how to ensure a great onboarding experience. Some first principle thinking as it relates to remuneration philosophies, the power of feedback, and the importance of diversity. It’s been a huge episode that I hope helps shapes the thinking of operators of all size companies. To wrap, keep an eye out for new scaling up episodes as I start to record new interviews in the coming months. And the final Culture Scaling Playbook episode on CEO Growth and customer-centric cultures will also be coming down the pipe soon. I really appreciate you taking the time to listen. I’m Ed Cowan and this is Scaling Up.


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